Right To Repair and Sustainability. Leanne Wiseman, Karen and Dan Ellis

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What does it mean Right to Repair?

That's a strange question to me when I think about it?

Don't I have that right anyway?

Today, former guests, Kaz and Dan Ellis of Mend it Australia down in Melbourne share their positive imprints regarding their many hours of community work with Repair Cafes, as well

And joining us is professor Leanne Wiseman from the university of Griffith "Downunder", who is undertaking the research international research on the legal and regulatory

Sit on the repair Australia steering committee, lots of knowledge on this subject.

Welcome to the show.

Dan, Kaz Leanne.

Hi Catherine.

You have been getting ready now for the summer.

Yes.

Thank goodness.

It's Karen and I am a summer girl and I should live where you live.

Leanne.

I think in Brisbane.

Well, Australia's such a beautiful place and I miss it and I can't wait to go back there with my husband in, and of course meet all of my new friends that are down there.

I have so many now and, and wow, but we are here to talk about something so important that is a global issue and something that is important for the earth and sustainability.

Leanne.

You are new to the show and I welcome you.

Thank you, Catherine.

It's lovely to join you.

If you want to know a little bit about me, I'm a professor of intellectual property law, and I've come to the right to repair movement, really from helping out Australian farmers, fix their tractors.

I've worked in agriculture and the issues that you raised about farmers and seeds earlier.

Intellectual property plays a really big role in agriculture access to new plant varieties and new technologies, but with all the digitalization on farms, with our tractors and combines having

It was really farmers who said, look, when my tractor breaks down?

I can't get access to the software code to actually find out what's wrong with my tractor.

And I can't fix my tractor.

I can't tinker with it anymore.

And that really brought me to the right to repair movement more generally, because it's not just tractors, it's our cars, it's our consumable goods, everything in our homes, that has digital devices

devices.

This is so interesting because you're bringing up some things that in United States at this moment, there are repairs needed on ventilators and they have to yes.

And so they can't repair them on site.

, and that's not just ventilators.

That's going to be any other medical machine, but that's what is

, in the news these days, but let me ask you something you're over at Griffith university and there's actually at the university is a research team, which you two Kaz, Karen, and you sit on the steering committee.

So yeah, elaborate on that.

And by the way, Leanne, you have a bird back there.

So if you could quick tell the listeners, what kind of a bird is your buddy?

Actually, it's not my own bird.

These are the birds outside my window.

We've got a couple of magpies, a couple of rosellas at the moment and larakeets.

So nice and tropical here in Brisbane, we've got parrots everywhere.

Oh,

how exciting.

Well, they're beautiful to listen to, and it just, it gives me a little visual of what you're seeing.

Of course, it's daytime out there for you and it's pitch dark over here and very cold.

So.

All right.

So go ahead with, with the chat about Griffith and how that came to be at the university.

The research that I've been doing around those right to repair movement, looking at what's been happening in the United States and Europe.

, we essentially held a repair summit in Australia, the first repairs summit, where we brought together all stakeholders around the right to repair.

So that involved manufacturers and repairers and policy makers and government officials.

And from that, we really recognized that we needed a peak body to represent the voice of repairers in Australia.

So we've had formed what we call Repair Australia, which is a peak body for those interested in the repair movement, across industry, policy makers and academia and grassroots level repairers like Karen and Dan.

So yes, we're probably more grassroots placed.

And we started off that way, where we were repairing at community repair events and we just got so interested and probably so concerned too, as to where repair was heading.

However, even before that, Danny, and I've been, uh, repairers at home as you know, Catherine, that's always been the case probably even since childhood.

So it, wasn't hard for us to just follow through with our passion and in retirement, just make this a legacy project that we basically self-fund to raise awareness of reuse and repair in the community.

Then it just sort of expanded from there.

I Now I'm sitting on a steering committee,

which is, uh, probably the ultimate, I guess, for, for Mend It Australia, for Danny and myself to actually get to that stage.

For me, I'm amazed that I've been dealing with, a gentleman, over in the states who had actually helped me fix a monitor, a computer monitor.

And I would never dream of that for or five years ago..

So that's how far Karen has been able to network and spread the word.

And, sometimes I'm just a passenger and I enjoyed the trip some times, but, uh,

but it

it's good involvement for everybody I think.

And, um, I think if people could just see the enjoyment I see that when people get things repaired, their face lights up

well put, put simply it is really just that.

It's about consumers being given the choice of repairers, that you can take your broken device or good to a repairer of your choice and not to be locked into the authorized manufacturer network.

There's another aspect to it is also ensuring that manufacturers essentially take on more responsibility for the goods that they produce and ensuring that goods have more durability and that there's more

And the ultimate goal is really to reduce the amount of e-waste that we're creating.

It's absolutely enormous.

I think it's really, the world bank is predicting something like the global waste production is going to increase approximately 1.3 billion tons, in the next 30 years.

So it's such a significant issue.

How can you make, how are the corporations going to do that

and start making things that are more durable and lasting.

Well, it's a range of responses that we're really looking for with the right to repair movement.

One is that manufacturers make repair information available to begin with.

So a lot of their service and information that you need to fix things is just being protected as proprietary information.

So we can mandate that manufacturers make that information available.

And we've seen legislation in the United States and Australia now that will make mandatory data sharing, safer car repair, available to independent repairers.

So that's a positive obligation that's been placed on manufacturers.

We see in France, they're introducing a repairability index where manufacturers have to stay at the point of sale

how repairable their goods are.

So they have to indicate on a scale of, are these fair parts available?

Can you break down the product?

Can you use common tools to repair?

All of that information will empower consumers to make better choices around repair.

So there's lots of different aspects as competition laws that we can use to make sure that they don't control the aftermarket.

Because what we're seeing is intellectual property laws, the copyright that they're putting into goods, if you can control who has access to the software

Not only do you sell the product, but you tethered the consumer back to you for years and years, because they have to bring the goods back to you.

There's laws around breaking down that competition issue, giving more consumer rights to know what they're buying and how to fix things and making sure spare parts are available.

All of those things will really change the behavior of manufacturers I think.

Yeah.

I'd like to say also too um, well, I believe corporate, have gotta have a different vision of the way they run, run things now because we're finite and they're still running as though nothing will ever run out.

They've got to sell so many units every year, so everyone can get a bonus.

I don't know how we can change that,

It does go beyond that for us, to raising awareness

of reuse and repair and the right to repair, both your fundamental right and your legislative, right into the community.

So raising awareness of that in our communities.

And again, that even goes further for us, not just in our community, but more nationally and internationally, we really, are dedicated to making a noise about

and Leanne's mentioned, and that's part of our work.

That's why we network a lot and that's why we raise our voice a lot.

And it's probably more, um, activism then advocacy in, many ways.

We feel it's just so important with Leanne, just explaining about, the, the amount of the why.

So what you know is going to be expected by the time she said, it's just, I can't even imagine that figure.

Danny and myself believe we have a role for future generations and we have grandchildren so we see what they're being exposed to in relation to, products

And so it's really important for us to stand up and.

Rock the boat a little bit.

I just love getting online and, Karen will get the camera

. We might do a how-to video.

Have a go at trying to fix yourself, go online, YouTube, Google, or whatever, and see what you can do.

Um, but that's, that's what I enjoys, being a bit of a rebel and void if you take a sticker off, it doesn't worry me.

I'll just take the sticker off and away I go.

My contribution is that I'll get the hands dirty and just show that it can be done.

You're always learning, always learning.

I really enjoy that and that's a great part of this right to repair.

And if we can't have the tools to learn, it just makes it so much difficult, like schematics and.

User manuals, service manuals and all that.

And they would help so much.

Yeah, the other, the other thing I wanted to mention too, is with the awareness we're raising, it's not just with the community, the grassroots community or networks.

It really is making a bit of a political protest, I guess, to the companies.

So we are really committed to making sure the companies know what we're doing as well.

We're being transparent and accountable in relation to the products that we see related to them and the barriers that we're experiencing with their products.

We really feel that they need to know.

For example, their brand is, not repairable by us.

And as two people, we feel that we could do that with social media.

It's great.

I FIX IT do it in, in a much grander way than us.

They're an organization in the states and they call out the actual manufacturers when they're doing their tear downs of products.

We do similar.

But it's not as, as flashy, I guess, as what, what a I FIX IT does, but we do certainly let the manufacturers know if we're doing anything in relation to their products.

Yeah.

One of my guests had mentioned that without the ability for us to go and tinker on things that we are losing the skill of problem solving.

And I think that that is an important point.

There are so many people that are not aware because we have become, and that term a throw away society, because it was the corporations have been molding us into that.

, that is not the right way to be because we have the planet to think about and the future to think about.

And you mentioned something about advocacy, and I think one of the things that's important is that you are an advocate.

And when I think of advocacy, I think of advocacy as education.

And then the activism as the doing so, yes, you're an activist, but you are also advocating and educating.

And I think that is so key.

So I have Leanne, I have a legal question because this has come up in the United States.

But first, before I go to the question, do you have anything to say about her with all the stuff we've been talking about?

No, I know.

I just agree.

I, I think, um, you know, awareness raising is a huge part of this that people understand that they're actually being marketed to, replace and, and keep buying new and bright, shiny things., but I think

Yeah.

Particularly I think COVID has really highlighted that with the breakdown of supply chains.

People have realized how dependent we are on, spare parts coming in from overseas.

You mentioned the ventilators, there's many examples of, the inability to get things repaired because of the global pandemic as well.

Yes, that is true.

So over in United States, corporations have been saying that if the legislation goes through for right to repair, that will compromise security for us as consumers with our computers, with our I-phones.

Well, there's a number of concerns that manufacturers raise.

Security and privacy and safety is another one that they always raised as to why things shouldn't be able to be repaired outside their authorized networks.

In terms of security of data and privacy of data

it's interesting because replacing a screen or a battery on an iPhone or a broken, monitor or broken screen on a laptop is not, making any of the data on that device vulnerable, in terms of privacy.

And we know for a fact that there was a recent breach of privacy with someone accessing, someone's photos on an apple iPhone, but that was an actual

Apple staff member.

Concerns around privacy when you're looking at toasters, dishwashers, microwaves, and fridges, um, it really not a significant reason.

And it's the same with the safety argument.

There, there is no significant safety concerns with replacing a battery, in, in many devices.

The fact that batteries are glued into many devices now and not screwed in just makes it virtually impossible, but it's not a safety issue.

So there may be some issues.

But for example, if you think about the ventilators, we're talking about repairability by hospital technicians, by biomedical engineers.

They're highly trained and highly skilled technicians.

It's not that everyone in the street is going to suddenly start to repair an airplane or repair a ventilator.

We're talking about getting access to information for people who have appropriate skills to do safe repair.

So the thing about safety, um, you've got to look at, who's doing your repair and, you'd find that most of us tinkerers and repairers have had some sort of method in training life skills or whatever to keep safe.

And that's one of the first things I do when I look at something.

Things do happen, whether you're trained or not, it can still happen to you.

No, I think that's right.

Look, I I'm, I'll be honest.

I'm one of the people I don't want to repair my own things.

I have no interest in, I have no skill, but I would like to have the choice to take it to an independent repairer or someone down the street who is say a

And so it's not only about self repair, it's about having the choice to have, a skilled repair, whoever delivers that.

Leanne, there are people who have brought this up, that some of the questions with regard to lawsuits and products and repairing them,

So how does that play into the right to repair legislation?

Well, that's a very interesting argument because tort law generallywill recognize where there's, what we call a break in the chain of causation.

If a manufacturer has produced a good and someone repairs that independently, it's very unlikely that the manufacturer would be held liable for the actions of a third party.

And I think you'll see at a lot of the grassroots and repair events that, um, people who are taking their goods to be repaired are aware of the fact that the repairs

So the manufacturers are not interested, are not prepared to, take any responsibility for those goods.

So I don't think that there's any significant issue.

This was certainly raised with our productivity commission about why should manufacturers be responsible for third party repair.

And I don't believe that the law would ever hold them responsible in, in that case, in any event.

Then we can move forward where it can work for the consumer as well as the corporations.

Oh, Danny.

Yeah.

So let's just kind of say, , as a repair tinkerer, if someone comes in with a failing product, I always ask, is it under warranty?

And if they say oh, ya I've still got the receipt.

I just won't touch it if it's still under warranty.

So I just thought I'd pass that on.

Where is the legislation going for Australia?

And then of course being on the steering committee, both Karen and Leanne, how is that working internationally?

Well, what we've seen in the United States you'd know there's lots of right to repair legislation.

Some consumer specific, some farm specific, some motor vehicle specific, all sitting in legislature.

What we've had in Australia is a recent inquiry by our economic think tank, the productivity commission, and they're recommending to our government.

And we hope to get the final report quite soon, but they're recommending changes to our consumer protection laws.

So that will enable consumers to understand their relationship between their warranty on their products and their rights under our consumer guarantees to have either repair or replacement provided where

if you use a repair manual, for example, that you find online or that you can break down a digital lock that's over the software in your car to work out why your indicator's not working for example.

So intellectual property laws are being looked at, but also our competition laws, being recommended to be reviewed as well, so that there's mandatory sharing of information by manufacturers.

So Australia is taking a multi-pronged approach and we're also looking at it from the environmental perspective about product lifespan and how to better reuse goods rather than recycle goods.

So, Australia is taking a bit of a combination of the European approach, which is the environmental stewardship approach and a little bit of the American approach, which is a consumer rights approach.

So we're, we're borrowing from each of those areas as to how we might respond, but we don't have any formal laws in place yet.

We've got a motor vehicle, data sharing piece of legislation that will come in to force in July next year, which will enable third party repairers to get access to diagnostic data, to fix cars,

I was not aware of it until I had met Karen and Danny and they brought the awareness to me and then I researched it of course, and was just astounded by

And now definitely want to change that.

That's really, really heartening to hear thank you for sharing that, Catherine, because that's sort of what we're doing every day and you do wonder, you sit at home and you think are we making a difference?

You are, you are

it's, uh, our messages, uh, inspired you to do better at home as far as waste goes, maybe, and to also be a sharing your skills by this podcast.

I did want to say about, uh, the productivity commissioner.

I'm glad Leanne brought it up because that was a big part of what Danny and I did in lockdown in Melbourne, because we experienced the longest lockdown in the world.

You probably know that.

And so we decided to do two submissions and attend one hearing, to the productivity commission and their right to repair inquiry.

And it was really great to be able to contribute in that way as two people, just two people, passionate about something to actually have a say

at the national level and have that on the public record.

We're really quite proud of that.

We're not being paid.

We have personal issues to contend with, and, and it was really, really good to just, uh, be able to, to contribute.

Karen, you and Dan have put in countless hours in your retirement to repair cafes and to different movements that, and awareness and advocacy.

So your activism has been absolutely phenomenal and definitely an inspiration, for those around who know your work.

Thanks for that.

Ya,,

absolutely.

Absolutely.

So is there anything that we have forgotten that you wanted to talk about any of you with regard to the right to repair before we go into your last inspiring words?

Community repair, groups are working tirelessly and they've volunteered their precious time to save all this stuff from landfill, basically, . And

And so I really wanted to say how important community repair is at the moment.

It really is holding its own at, at the grass roots and, and keeping repair, um, meaningful whilst the governments sit around and talk about how it needs to be improved

and should we include it in waste plans and, and, uh, so it's not really valued as it should be valued.

It needs to be valued a lot more and it needs to be funded.

Oh, Darebin repair cafe who we, volunteer at, they reported in a Facebook post that they had saved, 1.5 tons of stuff from landfill.

And that's the size of a large whale.

When you hear it like that, you do sit up and you do say these groups are making such, such a difference.

And I think you mentioned Catherine about skills.

It's keeping skills alive.

We've spoken about, learned helplessness before, in our first a podcast that we did together and how we're succumbing to this learned helplessness that we can't fix anything.

We can't sew on a button.

We can't get up the sewing machine and sew a seam.

It's really good to see these community repair events, doing what they're doing and they need to be valued a lot more.

And I really do hope the productivity commission gives more weight to community repair activities and makes a recommendation to the federal government to really look a lot more closely at how they can,

be funded and, and work with key other key stakeholders interested in repair.

Well, I, I come from it probably from the view the people who make the goods really should be responsible for those goods throughout the lifetime of those goods, right?

To the point where they're actually essentially cradle, they talk about cradle to grave design, but if a manufacturer wants to design a particular product, they should be thinking

Another brought back again and remade.

So my take on the whole repairability in terms of environmental sustainability is let's just place the responsibility more on the original equipment manufacturers to say, why do we need new brands?

You know, why do we need new.

Update.

Why do we need all these new things?

If you think about the products that you're making and don't control the aftermarket, we will have a better, um, environment going forward for the future.

Things that weren't, um, won't be problematic to repay.

They designed properly.

We can repair them if they provide spare parts.

So I think that's a very fundamental shift that we really enhanced a manufacturer responsibility for the goods.

And that's very much kind of the approach I think that the Europeans are taking.

So we are looking at a corporate change around the world with regard to our products that consumers are purchasing in making them last longer.

And we're looking at legislation across the globe worldwide and, , working towards

not just the right to repair, but now, as you talked to the beginning, the corporate change in their building of these products,

yes.

The design importance of, design, the sustainability.

I think there's a lot of designers and manufacturers who are trying to embrace that, to make sure that products are made in a way that are sustainable.

And that's such an important word.

So as we move forward with, or as you move forward with all of the work that you are doing there in Australia and worldwide, and thank you again so much for the work that you do, let's close with

I'll go first.

, my goal would be to keep doing what I'm doing for as long as I can and try and educate as many people as I can.

and hopefully the lady by my side will be right with me and we'll be louder louder as the years come along,

Uh, thank you, Danny.

Some words of wisdom.

There's wealth in waste and riches in rubbish.

That's one of my sayings.

There's wealth in waste, and riches in rubbish.

What I mean by that is, uh, there's money to be made.

And the recyclers certainly know about that.

They're making money from our waste.

So I think we really need to look at waste differently.

It needs to be looked at as a resource.

Not as, as waste.

There is a saying that if somebody could make, something from the contents of their rubbish bin, they would be more of a genius than Shakespeare.

And that was a GK Chesterton quote.

I have another bugbear with recycling, I guess, because it's not enough, any longer.

We have a recycling crisis throughout the world and recycling is no longer enough.

We need to refuse, reduce, reuse, and repair, They are, my words of wisdom,

It's Reuse and repair are two different things.

Thank you, Karen.

Leanne.

What are your last inspiring words you'd like to share

? Prof Leanne Wiseman: Well, I think it's something that we can all think about and each and every

A lot of people think it's this monumental fight against manufacturers, but it comes down to us each individually.

Can we get our things repaired?

Can we look for a better choice when we go to purchase a product?

Can we stick with the products that we have?

Can we make, do and mend?

Each of us I think in terms of awareness, raising or making better choices, And playing a role that we can.

It's not something that's too hard.

And I think, we're all aware of the environmental futures that we're facing and each generation, but I think each of us can do something.

it may be small.

It may be, it may be bigger, but whether it's, reusing and not purchasing as much at Christmas or re gifting or, buying better quality products perhaps, and not being,

Leanne, thank you for that.

All of you have wonderful words of wisdom and you have shared so much and thank you so much for your positive imprints, your inspiration.

And as we move forward, we hope that we are able to sustain our products for much longer.

Thank you, Leanne, Karen and Danny for being here on your positive imprint,

Thank you, Catherine

your positive imprint.