Demystifying Latin American Immigrants. Sergio Troncoso – Author

immigrant values brought over by immigrants are so

important to this country, to the success of this country, that, we

overlook how important immigrants look at the world in a very different way

than let's say somebody who is second, third, or fourth generation here.

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Your positive imprint.

What's your PI.

Sergio Troncoso is the son of Mexican immigrants.

Sergio was an excellent student and found satisfaction when writing

for the high school newspaper.

Later, he would attend Harvard and Yale universities where his writing

became more prominent in some of society's most popular publications.

Sergio writes philosophically as he questions the basis of morality, both in

his fiction and nonfiction compositions.

Often feeling condemned in academic circles and overlooked by those in

society who turn away from moral questions and differing perspectives

Sergio asks the unpopular questions that modern society today and continues

until maybe recently has ignored.

He weaves societal issues into his stories with his characters experiencing

a wretched hell; a hell that you and I hope to never endure, but you know, truly

reality for some citizens of our world..

Well, there are pressing issues within our communities worldwide

that need to be addressed.

Sergio writes with the hope that the reader will become involved

with the characters and when the story ends that the reader will

continue to ponder the issues, different perspectives and question,

What is the basis of morality within our own communities?

Sergio Troncoso.

Welcome to my show.

Your positive imprint.

I am so excited to have you here.

I've loved your books.

Love you.

Welcome.

Thank you so much, Catherine, for inviting me to your program.

I love chatting with you right before the program, and I'm eager to talk about my

work or my new novel nobody's pilgrims.

Sergio gives gives credit to his success to the values of his parents.

Both my parents were from Juarez, from Mexico and they had

these in incredible values of hard work.

You work until you drop.

You do it again the next day and you do it again the next day.

And that is what you do.

They believed in hard work.

But that, that value of hard work, I eventually learned to

translate it into mental work;

into pushing myself, to reading extra books, reading in the summer,

doing things that my high school colleagues were not doing because

for me, it was, as my mother would say, there is no tired in my house.

And, and I think those early days when I was in Isleta and very poor, I think

the biggest influences were probably my Mexican grandmother from my mother's

side, who told these violent, exciting stories about the Mexican revolution.

And, and I loved hearing her stories they were unfiltered.

Listening to her stories, laid a foundation for his own

storytelling, his own aspirations.

Sergio would be accepted into Ivy league schools, Yale and Harvard.

His great grandmother had this advice.

She said, Sergio,, don't come back with

your tail between your legs.

This is what you wanted, show them who you are.

Sergio continued with those values of hard work.

While on campus there were times when he wanted to go home because

of some negative interactions.

But those are in the past.

And today Sergio is a prominent international author of both

fiction and nonfiction with his most recent novel Nobody's Pilgrims.

It's about these three 17 year olds, uh, Turi

who's a Mexican American, from, from El Paso, similar to me.

He's a bookworm and he, he loves to read, but he's very poor.

And then he has a friend Arnulfo who's an undocumented immigrant and, and

they meet at a chicken farm as they're working to simply to make some money.

And Arnulfo is about to leave, the next day to go to Kansas city.

And he's hitching a ride with Juanito and a foreman at the chicken farm.

And so, when Turi comes home from that day of work something terrible happens.

He had a bad family life and, and he decides on the Lark that

he's gonna hitch a ride with Arnulfo and Juanito in this truck.

It's a, a blue Ford pickup.

And so they, they of course, find out very quickly this is still the very

beginning of the novel that Juanito is probably carrying contraband in the truck.

And the reason they find out is because Juanito bribes an immigration

officer in the outskirts of Texas, as they're, as they're pulling away

in the highway and they stop at a checkpoint and they see that he hands

the immigration officer some money.

So that begins a novel really in which, Turi and Anulfo steal the truck to get

away from Juanito and these bad people.

And they later meet Molly Crump.

The, the third person in that cover this poor white girl from Steelville

Missouri, a tiny little town who, who joins them and hitches the ride with them.

And, and I think one of the things I'm saying in the novel, first of

all, is that, young kids have sort of a resiliency and a grit and a way

to bond with each other that I think too often old, old people forget, you

know, they, they become fast friends just meeting each other for a day or

two and they're open- minded enough.

They're not thinking, oh, this guy's a Mexican or, or she's, a, poor

white girl from Steelville Missouri.

They simply connect through what they do with each other,

that they help each other.

, Turi and Molly, for example, love word play.

And he starts teaching her Spanish.

And , she, she plays with, with words as well, and she loves to read as well.

And they both love Mark Twain.

, so they start connecting in a way, forming this bond together that has,

become so important in the novel.

And, and of course, throughout all of this, as they're going across country

trying to escape these evil people who want their truck back and what's in

the truck, They, they never give up all sorts of bad things happen to them.

And people are after them.

Narco is from Mexico, a blue eyed blonde narco from Texas is also after them

to get what's what's in the truck and, and they, they always help each other.

Sometimes Molly saves them when they're in a difficult situation.

Sometimes Arnulfo the undocumented immigrant who saves them.

And sometimes it's Turi who's the one who's, , they're on this sort

of semi life raft and, uh, and they never give up on each other.

They never give up on the dreams that they have, Arnulfo wants to

send money to his parents and Turi wants to visit this idealistic

Connecticut that he's read from books.

And, and part of the novel is also this movement from the idealism of

New England, to the realism that they reach when they get to Connecticut,

which is in some places in Connecticut, they don't want them there.

They don't want Mexicans.

And in other places they're welcomed and, and helped by other people.

And Molly is, is trying to find her place in, in the United States as well.

And so of course, all of this is happening in a, in a United States, in the book

that is collapsing because of a pandemic.

And the, the interesting part about Nobody's Pilgrims of course, is that

all of it was written and turned in the final, final draft, uh, on

And so, in many ways, the, the book predicted the pandemic that was to

follow and it's a different pandemic.

, it's Marburg B in Nobody's Pilgrims.

So it's a pandemic transmitted with a virus through touch, not through

the air, like COVID and, and it's about the grittiness and toughness and

luck and love that, that forges the bond between these three that keeps

them fighting for what they want.

And so I think in many ways, this novel is about a realism, and a toughness

that, that hearkens back to my Abuelita, how she survived a difficult social

situation in revolutionary, Mexico.

And, , and how these three teens, sort of in some ways replay that, that

sort of social chaos that's going on in, this topian America and how they

believe in each other and fight for each other to create the country they

want and the community they want.

Sergio answers his own question.

What is the basis of morality within our communities?

And as a listener what do you think is the basis of morality within your community,

I believe the border has gone beyond the border.

And what, what that means to me is that, Mexican immigrants, Mexican Americans

have gone beyond, societies in Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, the, the bordering

states and gone to Kansas city, created communities in Minneapolis, created

communities in Connecticut, , and other places where there were not

maybe a lot of Mexican immigrants.

And so everything from the issues of assimilation to the issues of what values

and what they bring to these communities.

, and sometimes even the hostility.

Suddenly in a tiny little town in Connecticut, you might

find,, Mexican immigrants.

And there are some people who, instead of engaging them as people and, and

trying to, integrate them , into that community are hostile, to them simply

because they look different or they might also know Spanish as well as English.

And so all of these, I think issues have gone beyond the border and are

now part of a deeper areas in the United States, simply because you also

have hundreds of millions of Latin Americans south of the United States,

whom will always be coming across.

They were trying to make their American dream come true.

And so I think that that issue of becoming part of society and what they bring in,

it's not just, the problems they bring.

But I, I believe, just as I talked earlier about the immigrant values

that they bring that are so different from, let's say the, the values

of, of work in the United States.

I think immigrants really are, , such a positive influence on, looking outside

the box, working harder than you can imagine on focusing on families and

working together and, and all of these often are lost in American society.

once you sort of become entrenched, you start just seeing the other

in, in these other, newcomers.

And I think instead of seeing the other, I think you should harken

back to your own grandparents and your old, old, great grandparents who

came across with nothing and how they began and how they created the life

that you are now allowed to, to lead.

Um, but these immigrants are, are not that different in that way.

I loved this book.

Nobody's pilgrims.

It was one of those where you can't put it down, you have

to know what's gonna happen.

And there were a couple of things that happened that oh my gosh,

how could the author do this?

I think it it's those, those pressing issues

as you were talking about within our communities that are worldwide, and it's

not just in the border communities.

These issues are everywhere, the contraband

well, and then even like Narcos, for example,

you would imagine, oh, they're all, Mexican or Latin American.

And in fact, no, the, one of the main Narcos here is, is a blonde

blue eyed guy who is making a lot of money off the drug trade.

And his ancestors went to the Alamo.

And so people don't realize that there are a lot of, connections,

international connections and, and sometimes the bad people, of course,

many times the bad people are not

latin American immigrants, but people making money from, from the drug trade

on this side that are not immigrants and that are not Latino at all.

And so I think that's important point and, and I think, you know, I want,

I wanted, uh, a realism to nobody's pilgrims, but also an excitement.

I wanted it to move quickly.

I wanted it to be exciting.

I wanted to puncture a lot of, balloons and, and, and get the

reader really invested in these characters and believe in them.

And then I also wanted to shock the reader.

, you know, you did to, to open their eyes to what can happen, because I

think some of the novels do this.

Some of the novels do have tragedy, embedded in them, because.

You know, it it's, it's what they're going through is very

difficult and it's not easy.

And to write something that's, uh, sort of a beach read for me would,

would be not truthful to the situation and not truthful to the characters.

And yet, all of the things that are happening to them Turi and

Molly find love, find, a real connection with each other.

And it's sort of a slow simmering kind of romance that as they, as they spend more

time together, they realize, oh my gosh, this person who's so different from me

and from a completely different side of the world, we really connect in a way

that's, that's almost like a soulmate.

But it takes time for them to realize that in a way.

. And so I think the novel also has a lot of hope to it.

I, I didn't write the novel to depress people, I wanted to write something

real where there is real danger in what's going on with them, but also real

hope because for me, that's, that's, that's the kind of hope people want.

They want something that they've gone through the gauntlet, whether

it through COVID or through Marburg B and they've come out the other

side and, and they've survived.

And, and that I think is more meaningful to any reader than, than

something that's fake and contrived.

Uh, and that's, that's what I was trying to do as a writer.

Arturo.

Turi, one of the things that was important for me was that he had

values and morals, and they were being tried when he got into that truck.

And so now his perspectives were forced to change.

'what is

the basis of morals in my society.' And you have this quote, from your

personal essays crossing borders.

"Is love, acceptance without questions or challenges" right.

It's interesting that you mentioned that quote because,

, I've always thought of what is love versus, , let's say parental love.

And for me, , my parents, their love was tough love.

Their love was high expectations.

They support, they help, but they expect me to work for it.

They expect me to sacrifice.

Love is as much sacrifice in pushing you.

My parents would never praise us until we actually did something.

Like we painted the room and did it well, and then they inspected it.

And only then did they say 'you did a great job', but because it's manifest.

And so it's a very different kind of love than just sort of empty

praise and empty likes and dislikes.

I think that's fake.

This goes to social media.

Are you really an activist when you like a few things and post a few things on

the computer versus you get out there and you protest for what you want.

Our media culture is, is in many ways, watered down what we look up to

in terms of either protest or love.

And we've forgotten, the realism of love.

, and by the way, thinking about what forges a community, Turi, Molly, and

Arnulful,, they don't create a community simply because they land on an island

and everything is beautiful and, and they just, start loving each other.

They have to go through a gauntlet.

Just like the original pilgrims, they have to go through suffering.

They went through gauntlet after gauntlet to create a community.

And that's, that's really what Nobody's, Pilgrim's about.

It's about, forming your character, forming what you believe in through

pain and, and difficulties.

And, and by the way, I, one of my favorite writers is Flannery O'Connor

and she wrote about how violence in her stories reveals character.

You don't know who you really are until you're faced with a violent

situation to either defend yourself or defend somebody else or survive

a really dangerous situation.

So for me, the violence is not just gratuitous.

It is very actually very Aristotelian.

Violence or what either, what you escape or what you survive, reveals character.

It's just another form of action, but it's extreme action.

, And Aristotle would say that your character is revealed through your

response, through your actions and through your response to actions done upon you.

Just violence is just another extreme of that.

And so I think Fannie O'Connor without being too philosophical,

definitely, uh, wrote about that kind of, uh, very difficult situations in

the south, in many of her stories.

And that's what I mean by love for me.

When my parents praised me after doing a lot of hard work,

I knew it meant something.

And I remembered how my parents who did love us, but they pushed us.

And that's what their version of love was.

You know, it is sort of pushing and, and expectations about real achievements.

Definitely teaching you self responsibility also, which is

part of loving ourselves is when we're responsible for making

ourselves, be the best that we can be.

Now you have all of these other amazing books and again, crossing

borders is your personal essays,

I'm constantly writing and sometimes I'm involved in

these big projects that take years.

Typically novels.

And then sometimes I have this idea, for example, just, the other day,

I have an idea for a character that I started dreaming about, and I keep

thinking this is gonna be a short story, cuz it's not a complicated situation,

but this character won't leave my head.

And I dream about my characters all the time, by the way.

, and that's kind of what happens to me.

I, I follow my mind.

And so the, the two short story collections, I've written the very

first book I wrote the Last Tortilla and other stories, which, uh, Rudolfo

Anaya gave the, the, the Premio Aztlán to it's one of the, , most important

prizes I got as a young writer.

And then the last short story collection, I wrote A Peculiar Kind of Immigrant

Son, which came out a couple of years ago and, did very well won a few prizes.

Uh, and, and I love the short story because it's almost akin to poetry.

Everything has to happen within 10, 15, 20 pages.

So it's very tight and, it's, it's a form that I, uh, have always

loved and probably will always love.

And, and the two collections are very different where the last tortilla, I would

write stories that would get published.

And suddenly I had a book of 12, 15 stories and, and I threw

it together and that became the last tortilla and other stories.

And I really didn't know, I probably what I was doing as a writer, uh, you know, way

back when, when that book was published decades ago and, and the peculiar kind

of immigrant son was very different.

It it's a, it's a collection of 13 stories, but it's like a concept album.

I don't know if you remember pink Floyd, the wall, of course but

it, it was like, it was like that.

I'm gonna make a different short story collection in which every

piece is a particular part of a puzzle on the same theme.

So this particular kind of immigrant son was we're all on, , themes of

immigrants, but it's also on perspective.

You know, I love Virginia Wolf and I love, Frederick Nietzsche who's of

course a philosopher of perspectivism.

And so in these 13 stories that appeared in the peculiar kind of immigrant son, you

see different characters from different perspectives, so they appear in one story.

And then in the next story, you see it, that character from a different angle and,

and you start questioning yourself, who is this person that I am reading about?

You know, did I, uh, you know, what is the right perspective?

And, and for me, of course, it's about the perspectivism in my life.

As much as I am a, a, a person who teaches at Yale and spent

a lot of time in the Ivy league

I'm also still the kid from the border.

I'm also still the kid who carried live chickens from trucks as his first job.

I'm also a husband.

I'm also, you know, uh, a father to, kids.

And so I, I have a lot of different selves, so to speak.

And I think all of us do.

And I think a peculiar kind of immigrant son is playing on this concept

that we all have different selves.

For example, if I ask your husband who Catherine is versus if I ask

your best friend, you're gonna get a different angle of who you are.

Right.

And, and I think that's, that's what I was trying to do in a peculiar kind of

immigrant son, write about immigrants, but also play with perspectivism.

What do you feel are your positive imprints when it

comes to your writing in which you're bringing to society?

Well, I hope my positive imprints are, look at poor people.

People that you would otherwise, , step over or ignore whether they're poor

immigrants, poor Mexican immigrants and pay attention to them in a curious

way, ask them about their lives.

And you'd be surprised that these people who are often forgotten by society

may actually have something to teach you that may help you in your life.

And that's certainly how I felt about my grandmother, that

anyone who's gone through a difficult, uh, situation in life.

Oh my gosh.

If you just listen to my grandmother through my stories, for example,

you would learn how to survive, how to grit it through and then

how to celebrate at the other side.

So I think, , that positive imprint of looking at, at those

who, uh, we otherwise forget.

I think that's very important.

I think another positive imprint is about the importance of grit, the importance

of toughness in surviving any situation and, and then ha having that kind of

real sense of joy when you get through a difficult situation, is, very positive.

I've tried to teach that to my children.

I just, in fact, just finished teaching a, a Yale writer's workshop and I

have students who are 20 year olds and some who are 40 and 50 year olds.

Some of, some of them who are published authors, they said I lead one of the

toughest workshops they've ever had, but they also had the most fun., I had

these high expectations for my students.

I worked them as hard as I work for them.

And then when they come out of the other side and they can create a

new story from the, the lessons that I gave them and from, tearing

apart their story, then showing them how to create their own voices.

They know they have some real achievements at the end of that workshop that they

can now turn to their own writing.

And this is about the same sense of love.

I could go and tell them, oh, everything is positive and beautiful.

And let me just affirm you.

And, and so basically what I'm telling them is don't change anything in your

story and they don't learn anything, or I could be a tough but supportive teacher

and show them exactly line by line, what they're doing wrong, how they, how to

improve it and then make them work for it.

And I taught them how to write and rewrite their own stories.

So they have a real achievement at the end of that workshop.

And I think that's for me, trying to teach that tough love as a positive

imprint, I would, I would say is, is one of the most important things that matters

to me because that's real achievement.

And, as I tell my students, I'm gonna teach you how to become a great

editor of your own work and a great writer and rewriter, and so you,

you won't need me anymore, you'll be able to do it all on your own, and

that's a real positive imprint.

That's what I would call it.

It's getting in the trenches and showing them exactly what they need to

do to improve and improve their voice.

If we're getting good writers out there, because reading

for me is, a learning experience and of course being entertained, and I

am one that will read a book and then really think about things because I know

that there are different realities out there, especially doing this podcast.

I meet people all over the world and my listeners are all over the world.

I am aware, very aware of, of some of the different societal issues around

the world and the borders are, we, it feels like we no longer have borders.

It doesn't feel like it especially doing this podcast because it just feels

like we're trying to support each other, at least hoping that people are, so

that we can all get through our own realities when they turn for the worst.

And I know you you've beared some of those worst realities in your own life.

Well, I love talking to you and, for me, this is sort of

the idea the best idea of media is to reach beyond, the electrons to

reach beyond borders, to reach people who you otherwise would not speak to.

Because I think all of us, need to cross more borders and, and

we can do this through media.

We can do this to language.

We can do this by engaging someone else, from the other side of the world,

simply through, media like this.

And, and I think the more borders all of us cross, the

more we will create this, "We"

this community that we're trying to create.

And so for me, that's so important that it's something I've written about that

in the United States, we are not a 'We", and, and the way we become a, 'we' is

by talking to each other, demystifying, what is a Mexican immigrant?

You'll find out that there's not one thing, but there's so many things

that that could possibly mean.

And, uh, and I think reaching across borders from the immigrant perspective,

and then from somebody who's not an immigrant, I, I get letters and emails

from people all across the world that tell me, oh, I really understand a little bit

more about your culture, how you grew up and, and what, how it can benefit me.

even though I'm not an immigrant, but the lessons that you learned in terms of, uh,

your focus and your discipline, this is something that might be helpful to me.

So I think all as, as long as all of us are crossing borders through media,

I think that's very hopeful sign.

That's what I think.

That certainly would make you feel that yes, those issues

that are being ignored or have been ignored , are being discussed a

little bit more, you know, when you add a little bit more and a little

bit more and a little bit more soon, there's more and more than right less.

When I talk to immigrants and of course being in New Mexico,

we have a lot of immigrants.

They don't always talk about chasing the dream.

They talk about leaving the anguish, right.

And trying to have a life where they're not, feeling that they're looking

over their shoulder all the time.

Right.

And for me, that's a unfortunate reality for people in countries who

aren't leaving for the dream anymore.

They're leaving for hope and I know dream and hope can be used

synonymously, but it's not the same when you're talking to an immigrant

who is leaving to hope to just survive.

Right?

No, and it's true.

Some of these countries have issues of safety, and they're

coming over simply to escape.

Mm-hmm the violence or escape, uh, the problems in their society.

You know, the, the question will be for us.

Are we really still the answer, you know, I mean, in some, you know, you worry in

some places where the gun violence here in this country is so astronomical and, and

the, the gun ownership is so astronomical, that is it gonna be any different?

We do have our own problems here.

Are we still part of this dream?

Or are we just gonna continue the problems?

Um,

I think Arturo, your, your character, Turi, he can answer that.

It is about going from an idealism of, of the United

States or the, the dream that Turi has at the very beginning to a realism

of what Connecticut, Connecticut is simply a placeholder for the American

dream for what he believes in.

And so by, by the end of the novel, of course, they're in the real

Connecticut where, so where good things have happened and some terrible

things have happened and, and they're still fighting for that dream.

And so I think a lot of, of, of a nobody's Pilgrim it's about going from that

idealism of what you think the dream is to the, the gauntlet and the realism that

you face once you get to the other side.

If you look at the first chapter, what he thinks love is is not

what he gets at the end, right.

So instead of becoming an abstraction, right, his love, it becomes a

reality and who he actually has to work with to create that community

that he, he and, and Molly want.

And so, so I think that it there's a lot of that going on in the novel,

going from the, the, sort of the vague and idealistic dreams of the young,

to the realism and the, the grittiness of, of people who become adults.

Yes.

And that's, that is the sheer reality of life.

So Sergio . You are inspiring and your writing is inspiring

and thought provoking.

And I appreciate that from you and entertaining.

, what are your last inspiring words?

Well, I, I, I think my last words are that I

really believe in my readers.

I trust my readers that they will, look at these characters in a careful

way and, and, and really engage with them because that's how I'm writing.

And, and I'm writing because I believe readers want kind of entertaining,

but also sort of deep, psychological, philosophical fiction that they can

reread and get another layer of it.

Later.

And so I really do believe in, in my readers and I, I, I'm always grateful

when somebody writes me these two or three page emails, from Brazil or Sacramento,

and , tell me about all that they got from nobody's pilgrims or , a peculiar kind

of immigrant son or some of my other works because I do put so many layers into

them and sometimes people get them and sometimes they just go right over people.

And so I love it when I get this careful reader that really pays

attention to all of these different things I'm doing in the work.

I trust my readers.

I think readers are my, the readers I like are, are very deep,

intelligent, thoughtful readers.

Well, I certainly appreciate you.

And I, I think I fall right into that.

and Sergio Troncoso, I have so much enjoyed hearing from you personally,

now in person and, author of many, many books and personal

essays and publications out there.

And most recently nobody's pilgrims Sergio.

Thank you again for being here on your positive imprint.

Thank you, Catherine, for inviting me to your show.

It was terrific.

All right.

Thank you.

Thanks for listening to part two with Sergio Troncoso.

You can hear part one with Sergio on episode 180.

Learn more go to his website, SergioTroncoso.Com.

S E R G I O T R O N C O S O.

His books are available on Amazon bookshop.org, Barnes, and

noble, and many other bookstores.

Your positive imprint.